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The Gemara Asks:
וכמה שיעור סתירה
And for
how long must
they be
secluded?

The Gemara will cite nine answers:
כדי טומאה
The
amount
of time it takes to be immoral
,

כדי ביאה
Which is
the amount
of time it takes
to have intercourse,

כדי העראה
Which is
the amount
of time it takes for the organs
to touch,

כדי הקפת דקל
Which is
the amount
of time it takes
to go around a palm tree.

דברי רבי ישמעאל
1.
This is Rabbi Yishmael's close
The will explain why Rabbi Yishmael had to mention three different durations
opinion .

ר"א
=רבי אלעזר
אומר כדי מזיגת הכוס
2.
Rabbi Elazar says
that seclusion must last long enough to be able to
mix a cup of wine
(the size of a Reviyis).

רבי יהושע אומר כדי לשתותו
3.
Rabbi Yehoshua says
the seclusion must last long enough to be able to
drink it.

בן עזאי אומר כדי לצלות ביצה
4.
Ben Azzai says
the seclusion must last long long enough to be able
to fry an egg.

ר"ע
=רבי עקיבא
אומר כדי לגומעה
5.
Rabbi Akiva says
the seclusion must last long enough
to swallow
the fried egg.

רבי יהודה בן בתירא אומר כדי לגמוע שלשביצים זו אחר זו
6.
Rabbi Yehuda ben Beseira said
the seclusion must last long enough to be able to
swallow three eggs one after another.

ר"א
=רבי אלעזר
בן ירמיה אומר כדי לקשור גרדי נימא
7.
Rabbi Elazar ben Yirmiya said
the seclusion must last long enough to be able
to tie the threads
at the end of
a garment.

חנין בן פנחס אומר כדי שתושיט ידה לתוך פיה ליטול קיסם
8.
Chanin bar Pinchas said
the seclusion must last long enough to be able
to put her hand into her mouth and remove a splinter.

פלימו אומר כדי שתושיט ידה לסל ליטול ככר
9.
Plimo said
the seclusion must last long enough to be able
for her to move her hand to a basket and to take a loaf
of bread.

אע"פ
=אף על פי
שאין ראיה לדבר, זכר לדבר
And despite there being no proof
that the duration of seclusion is the amount of time needed to remove a loaf of bread, the verse
hints to the matter:

כי בעד אשה זונה עד ככר לחם
"For
lust
for a harlot
reduces one
to
begging for
a loaf of bread".

 
 
Name Opinion in 1st Braisa - the amount of time it takes to ...
Rabbi Yishmael go around a palm tree.
Rabbi Elazar mix a cup of wine
Rabbi Yehoshua drink this cup of wine
Ben Azzai fry an egg
Rabbi Akiva to swallow
the fried egg
Rabbi Yehuda Ben Beseira swallow three eggs one after another
Rabbi Elazar Ben Yirmiya tie the threads at the end of a garment
Chanin bar Pinchas put her hand into her mouth and remove a splinter
Plimo move her hand to a basket and to take a loaf
of bread
 
This is one Braisa. The Gemara quote an arguing Braisa.
 
 
The Gemara Asks:
וכל הני למה לי
Why
does Rabbi Yishmael three different times?

The Gemara Answers:
צריכי דאי תנא כדי טומאה הוה אמינא כדי טומאתה וארצותה
Had
Rabbi Yishmael
taught
only that seclusion must last
"the duration required for
immorality",
one could have thought
that he really required the seclusion to last long enough that the adulterer could
convince her
and then
be
immoral.

קמ"ל
=קא משמע לן
כדי ביאה
So Rabbi Yishmael must
teach us
that the duration of immorality is the duration
of intercourse.

ואי תנא כדי ביאה הוה אמינא כדי גמר ביאה
And
had
Rabbi Yishmael only
taught
that the duration of seclusion is the time it takes to have intercourse,
one could have thought
that this "duration of intercourse" is defined as the duration of only
the "last stage" of intercourse,

קמ"ל
=קא משמע לן
כדי העראה
So Rabbi Yishmael has to
teach
that the seclusion must last the duration of the "first stage".

ואי אשמעינן כדי העראה ה"א
=הוה אמינא
כדי העראה וארצותה
And had
Rabbi Yishmael
taught
only
that
seclusion must last the duration of the "first stage" of intercourse
, one could have thought
that seclusion must last the amount of time it takes to
convince her and
then having "the first stage" of intercourse,

קמ"ל
=קא משמע לן
כדי טומאה
So Rabbi Yishmael
had to teach
that seclusion need not last longer than the amount of time it takes to become
impure.

The Gemara Asks:
וכמה כדי העראה
So how
long does it take to become impure?

The Gemara Answers:
כדי הקפת דקל
The amount of time it takes
to go around a palm
tree.

 
 
 
The Gemara Asks:
ורמינהי
But
there is a contradiction,
as another Braisa lists different durations for the same act for the same Rabbis!

ונסתרה
The verse says that
"she was secluded."

וכמה שיעור סתירה
What is the duration of seclusion?

לא שמענו
It doesn't say
yet,

כשהוא אומר והיא נטמאה
But when the verse
says that "she was
immoral,"

הוי אומר
One can say that ...

כדי טומאה
The seclusion must last the amount of time required for immorality,

כדי ביאה
Which is the amount of time required for
intercourse.

כדי העראה
Which is the amount of time required for the "first stage" of intercourse,

כדי חזרת דקל
Which is the amount of time it takes
to return a palm
tree,

דברי ר"א
=רבי אלעזר
1.
These are the words of Rabbi Elazar.

רבי יהושע אומר כדי מזיגת הכוס
2.
Rabbi Yehoshua says
that seclusion must last
the amount
of time it takes
to mix a cup.

בן עזאי אומר כדי לשתותו
3.
Ben Azzai says
that seclusion must last
the amount
of time it takes
to drink it.

ר"ע
=רבי עקיבא
אומר כדי לצלות ביצה
4.
Rabbi Akiva says
that seclusion must last
the amount
of time it takes
to fry an egg.

רבי יהודה בן בתירא אומר כדי לגומעה
5.
Rabbi Yehuda Ben Beseira says
seclusion must last the
amount
of time it takes to
swallow
an egg

 
 
Name Opinion In 1st Braisa - The Amount Of Time It Takes To ... Opinion In 2nd Braisa - The Amount Of Time It Takes To ... Contradiction?
Rabbi Yishmael To go around a palm tree. - No
Rabbi Elazar Mix a cup of wine to go return a palm tree. Yes
Rabbi Yehoshua Drink this cup of wine mix a cup of wine Yes
Ben Azzai Fry an egg drink this cup of wine Yes
Rabbi Akiva Swallow the fried egg to fry an egg Yes
Rabbi Yehuda Ben Beseira Swallow three eggs one after another to swallow (the fried egg) Yes
Rabbi Elazar Ben Yirmiya Tie the threads at the end of a garment - No
Chanin bar Pinchas Put her hand into her mouth and remove a splinter - No
Plimo Move her hand to a basket and to take a loaf
of bread
- No
 
 
 
The Gemara will now resolve the contradictions:
קס"ד
=קא סלקא דעתך
היינו הקפת דקל היינו חזרת דקל
The Gemara assumes that
going around a tree
takes the
same
amount of
time as "the return of the tree,"

The Gemara Asks:
התם א"ר=
אמר רבי
ישמעאל כדי הקפת דקל ופליג ר"א
=רבי אליעזר
עליה
In the first Braisa,
Rabbi Yishmael said
that the duration of seclusion lasts the amount of time necessary
to go around a palm,
and
Rabbi Eliezer disagreed.

הכא אמר ר'
=רבי
אליעזר כדי חזרת דקל
While in
the second
Braisa
, Rabbi Eliezer said
that seclusion must last
the amount
of time
necessary for the palm's return
and thereby agreeing with Rabbi Yishmael.

Abaye anwees by disputing this assumption:
אמר אביי הקפה ברגל חזרה ברוח
Abaye answered that "Circling
a palm tree"
is by
the amount of time it takes to go around a tree by
foot. "The return
of the palm tree"
is
the amount of time it takes for a tree, (which was blown by the
wind)
to return to its original position.

The Gemara Asks:
בעי רב אשי חזרה ברוח כי היכי דאזיל והדר אתי
Rav Ashi asked
if
this "return of the palm tree"
is as long as (the time)
it takes to
be blown by the wind to one side
and come back,

או דילמא כי היכי דאזיל ואתי והדר קאי בדוכתיה
Or perhaps
it's the time
it takes
for a tree
to
be blown over
, come back, and then go back to its
original
position.

The Gemara Answers:
תיקו
This question is left unresolved.

 
 
 
The Gemara Asks:
התם אמר ר"א
=רבי אליעזר
כדי מזיגת הכוס הכא כדי חזרת דקל
Rabbi Eliezer said
(in the first Braisa) that seclusion must last the amount of time necessary
to mix a cup
of wine, while
in
the second Braisa he said that the seclusion must last
the amount of time it takes to go around a palm tree!

The Gemara Answers:
אידי ואידי חד שיעורא הוא
The two take the same amount
of time.

 
 
 
The Gemara Asks:
התם א"ר
=אמר
יהושע כדי לשתותו הכא אמר כדי מזיגת הכוס
Rabbi Yehoshua said
(in the first Braisa) that seclusion lasts
the amount
of time that it takes
to drink a cup of wine,
while
in the second Braisa he said
that takes the
amount
of time to
mix a cup of wine!

The Gemara Answers:
אימא כדי למזוג ולשתות
His opinion in both Braisas
is that
seclusion must last the
amount of
time
to mix
the cup
and to drink it.

The Gemara Asks:
ולימא אידי ואידי חד שיעורא הוא
Why didn't
the Gemara close
as it did in the previous answer
answer that
both
mixing and drinking
take the same amount
of time?

The Gemara Answers:
א"כ
=אם כן
היינו ר"א
=רבי אליעזר
Had it been true
that it takes as long to mix a cup as it takes to drink it, Rabbi Yehoshua's opinion
would be Rabbi Eliezer's opinion
(in the first Braisa)
.

The Gemara Asks:
התם אמר בן עזאי כדי לצלות ביצה הכא אמר כדי לשתותו
Ben Azzai said
(in the first Braisa) that seclusion lasts the
amount
of time it takes
to fry an egg,
while in the second Braisa
he said it takes the amount
of time
to drink
a cup of wine!

The Gemara Answers:
אידי ואידי חד שיעורא הוא
Both
drinking a cup of wine and frying an egg take
the same amount
of time
.

 
 
 
The Gemara Asks:
התם אמר רבי עקיבא כדי לגומעה הכא אמר כדי לצלות ביצה
Rabbi Akiva said
(in the first Braisa) that seclusion lasts the
amount
of time it takes
to swallow an egg,
while in the second Braisa
he said
that seclusion lasts the
amount
of time it takes
to fry an egg!

The Gemara Answers:
אימא כדי לצלות ביצה ולגומעה
One must conclude
that seclusion must last the amount of time
to fry an egg and to swallow it.

The Gemara Asks:
ולימא אידי ואידי חד שיעורא הוא
Why can't one
answer that both
cooking an egg and swallowing an egg
take the same amount
of time?

The Gemara Answers:
אם כן היינו בן עזאי
The Gemara answers that
had it been true,
Rabbi Akiva (as described in the second Braisa)
would agree with Ben Azzai
(in the first).

The Gemara Asks:
התם א"ר
=אמר רבי
יהודה בן בתירא כדי לגמוע שלש ביצים זו אחר זו הכא אמר כדי לגומעה
Rabbi Yehuda ben Beseira says
(in the first Braisa) that seclusion must last the
amount
of time it takes
to swallow three eggs, one after another,
while in the second Braisa
he says
that it takes the
amount
of time
to swallow an egg!

The Gemara Answers:
לדבריו דרבי עקיבא קאמר דקאמר משערין בצליאה ובגמיעה
Rabbi Yehuda ben Beseira explains the opinion of
Rabbi Akiva, who said
seclusion must last the amount of time
it takes to roast
an egg
and
swallow it
.

אימא שיעור גמיעה לחודה כדי לגמע שלש ביצים זו אחר זו דהיינו צליאה וגמיעה:
Rabbi Yehuda ben Beseira says that the amount of time it takes
to swallow three eggs one after another
is the same amount of time it takes to
fry three eggs, one after another.

 
 
Name Opinion In 1st Braisa - The Amount Of Time It Takes To ... Opinion In 2nd Braisa - The Amount Of Time It Takes To ... Contradiction? Resolution
Rabbi Yishmael To go around a palm tree. - No -
Rabbi Elazar Mix a cup of wine To go return a palm tree. Yes Same amount of time
Rabbi Yehoshua Drink this cup of wine Mix a cup of wine Yes Mix a cup and then drink it
Ben Azzai Fry an egg Drink this cup of wine Yes Same amount of time
Rabbi Akiva Swallow the fried egg To fry an egg Yes To fry the egg and then swallow it
Rabbi Yehuda Ben Beseira Swallow three eggs one after another To swallow the fried egg Yes Same amount of time
Rabbi Elazar Ben Yirmiya Tie the threads at the end of a garment - No -
Chanin bar Pinchas Put her hand into her mouth and remove a splinter - No -
Plimo Move her hand to a basket and to take a loaf of bread - No -
 
 
 
The Gemara will now go back and explain these opinions:
ר"א
=רבי אלעזר
בן ירמיה אומר כדי שיקשור גרדי נימא
Rabbi Elazar ben Yirmiya said that
seclusion
lasts the amount
of time it takes
to tie the threads
coming out
of the garment.

The Gemara Asks:
בעי רב אשי דמרחק או דמקרב
Rav Ashi asked
if the threads must be
distant
or may be
close
together?

The Gemara Answers:
תיקו:
This question is left unresolved.

 
 
 
חנין בן פנחס אומר כדי שתושיט ידה לתוך פיה ליטול קיסם:
Chanin bar Pinchas said that said that
seclusion
lasts the amount
of time it takes
to stretch one's hand into his mouth and take out a splinter.

The Gemara Asks:
בעי רב אשי דמהדק או דלא מהדק
Rav Ashi asked
if the seclusion must last long enough to remove a
stuck
splinter
or a loose
splinter.

The Gemara Answers:
תיקו:
This question is left unresolved.

 
 
 
פלימו אומר כדי שתושיט ידה לסל ליטול ככר:
Plimo said said that
seclusion
lasts the amount
of time it takes
to remove a loaf of bread from a basket.

The Gemara asks five questions:
בעי רב אשי דמהדק או דלא מהדק
Rav Ashi asked
if 1. Seclusion must last as long as it takes to remove
stuck
bread
or loose
bread?

בחדתא או בעתיקא
2. Seclusion must last as long as it takes to remove bread from a
new
basket (from which splinters still protrude)
or
from
an old
basket (which is smooth)?

בחמימא או בקרירא
3. Seclusion must last as long as it takes to remove
warm
bread (which is soft and must be handled gently, lest it fall)
or cold
bread?






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Dedicated in loving memory of Leah Rivka Bas Reb Dovid HaKohen A"H.
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